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July 06, 2005

Comments

Scott

I thought you were converted yesterday by the Right Brothers.

I believe Majikthise's point (although I can't speak for the comments) was that the science itself was lacking. Add that to the provocative title, "Gay, Straight, or Lying", and you can infer that the authors of the article are themselves jumping to conclusions.
I just wanted to point out one thing, although there are many questions left unanswered by this article (though not necessarily the scientific paper, which may have made no such conclusions). The study showed that the respondents who self-reported being bisexual showed either the same arousal patterns of either the self-reported gay or straight respondents. Despite the article's own contention that self-reporting is unreliable at best, it jumps to the conclusion that the "bisexuals" are either purely gay or straight, and not the possiblility of the opposite conclusion that the gay and straigt respondents may have a touch of bisexuality about them.

Michael

OK, now I'm nervous. Because my fellow LC blogger Mustang Bobby did a post on this story on Tuesday, and I expressed my significant reservations about the study. Was I over the line? (I don't think so, but I wouldn't mind having a second opinion.)

Heather

Michael, your comments were not over the line. I had responses to some of your methodological concerns, which I had typed out very nicely and are now gone because my browser crashed. Sample size for one--on what are you basing your assertion that the sample is too small?

Obviously research like this is riddle with problems...I of course applaud readers who are critical of reports like this one. How can you not be, especially with awful sensationalized articles like the one in the times plus that bailey guy talking way outside his data...

Those things aside, I was pretty upset by the venomous reactions some of these people had to the article...mostly the commenters (not all of them, just some, and only a few really bad ones).

Scott, I don't object to what Majikthise wrote except that she might have mentioned the potential benefits of this research, and thus set a better tone for the discussion, but hell, she can't foresee how people are going to react. She took issue mostly with Bailey's (admittedly preposterous) conclusion, but some of her commenters were falling all over themselves to write these nasty, sarcastic "reviews" about about stupid the research is, when it's obvious they don't know anything about it. On one of the blogs, someone went as far as to admit that they were rejecting the research just because they didn't like the conclusions. people were justifying their reactions with things like, "well I firmly believe that sexuality is a continuum..."

I believe?

What i saw from some of these people was straight up rejecting of science (maybe good science, maybe bad, but at least worthy of some consideration) because it threatened their tidy little worldview. no thinking about the research, just sitting there type type typing out snide, uninformed bullshit, like it's heritage foundation day on the liberal blogosphere.

the truth is that I myself have an intuition that sexuality is a contiuum, at least for women, and i know at least some research backs up this opinion. but you know what i've never been? a man. so I'm not going to speak for them. you know what else I've never been? another woman. so I'm not going to speak for them either. I believe that we don't realy know how the mind works and that it would be nice to learn what the hell sex really is even if we start with crappy flawed studies. but not too flawed. and that bailey guy should saying stupid shit to reporters when he actually says something different in his paper.

ignore my blowing off steam, it's not directly at you michael or scott. michael, you seem to know a good bit about this research. tell us about the history of the penis strap thing (which they did use). is it true they use them to identify pedophiles?

oh by the way, i have the whole article, which i can email to anyone who's interested. i've only skimmed through it. turns out they did subjective ratings of arousal too and those showed more bisexual patterns.

Michael

Heather, I was concerned that their overall sample was only 100 people--and that was before I read Mixing Memory's posts (thanks for the links, by the by, and he's in my bookmarks file now) and found out that (a) they were selected by advertisements only in gay and "alternative" magazines, and (b) they had a "prescreening" process to weed out the "weakly reacting" guys. (That last alone should disqualify the study: if you cut out all the people who don't show a strong reaction, and then only find people who show a strong reaction in either the gay or the hetero direction, is that such a big surprise?) Cut that sample three ways, and you're talking about 25-30 people in each group. Kinsey's data, flawed as it is, was based on a much bigger sample.

I'm not familiar with anybody using the penile plethysmograph to test for pedophilia, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone had tried it. What little I know about the device (not from personal experience) comes by way of James Weinrich's work. I think it's in his book Sexual Landscapes, but he did a chapter on plethysmography describing how it worked and some of its limitations. There might be more information somewhere on his web site.

dolphin

I agree about considering the study, I found it to be very interesting study. There are of course flaws that need to be addressed.

As was mentioned the sample size was smaller than I'd like to have seen and the selection process a bit off. I also think the study neglected some major aspects of sexuality through their method. There is clearly a physical aspect of attraction but there are also DEEP emotional and socail aspects (none of which can be attained through watching a porno). Even still I thought it was a very interesting study. It really doesn't help the "it's a choice" crowd either. To claim that the study proves bisexuality to be a choice would neccesitate a "non-choice/non-social" (basically a biological) basis for homosexuality. After all, the gay men (and alot of the bi men) responded to men. So if the ultimate indicator of orientation is physical arousal caused by visual stimulus, then the study would in fact prove gay men to be gay.

I'd like to see them modify the study to take into account the emotional/social aspects of orientation. Perhaps video of men and women they know and think are attractive.

Cheryl

OK, now that I have reviewed the chatter on all the blogs you referenced, it is time to lay this Frankenstein to rest.

The key to understanding this 'study' is to understand the history. For that, you need to go to U Mich and Gender Talk for the straight poop.

Bailey is a corrupt, unethical, fanatical, idealogically motivated right-wing fascist. He surrounds himself with like-thinking fascists who share his beliefs on patriarchy and eugenics. He is intent on proving that:

1) Male-to-Female transsexuals are either heterosexual narcissistic autogynephiliacs who are pathologically fixated on and attracted to the image of themselves as women, or gay men in denial.

2) Bisexual men are either confused heterosexuals, or gay men in denial.

3) All women are either bisexual or lesbians in denial.

Bailey uses our federal tax dollars to fund his twisted 'research'. His hate-ridden propaganda relies heavily on contemporary stereotype and myth backed up with a thin shell of dubious data (read: fraudulent).

Bailey's underlying motivation is to prove that only heterosexual men are healthy and that everyone else is sick (including all women). His objective is to reinforce and cement the heterosexual patriarchal religious caste system the world currently labors under by ensconcing his sick beliefs into the halls of academia.

Don't take my word for it. See the evidence for yourself.

Interim Investigative Report on
J. Michael Bailey's 06-02-03 Public Lecture at UCLA

...The incident reported here is the showing by Prof. J. Michael Bailey of selected clips from an ~8 to 9 year old psychological research interview tape of his research subject Anjelica Kieltyka in 1994-95 (specific date to be determined). Prof. Bailey showed the tape in an open public lecture at UCLA on 06-02-03, without authorization for any public showings of that tape...

...Anjelica is a creative artist and photographer, and she has for almost 12 years been a mentor to young trans women who were undergoing transsexual transition. In recent years she had also been studying psychology as a part-time student at Northwestern University...

In Anjelica's mind, the interactions were those of "intellectual colleagues" in which she educated Prof. Bailey about her extensive field experiences among transsexual women and helped him teach about transsexualism by herself giving lectures on the topic in Prof. Bailey's classes on human sexuality. However, to Prof. Bailey, Anjelica was a research subject whom he observed, interviewed and recorded. She was an especially prized research subject, being an example in his mind of a hypothesized type of sexual-paraphilic whose existence supported a theory of transsexualism he greatly wished to "prove" to other psychologists.

As the evidence here and elsewhere will demonstrate, Prof. Bailey was clearly aware of Anjelica's perception of their mutual roles. However, Prof. Bailey never informed Anjelica that his perception of their mutual roles was totally different from hers, namely that she was his research subject...

Anjelica Kieltyka, a transwomen who befriended J. Michael Bailey, on this man and his methods, and some of the forces that brought his voice to national prominence

We've talked all about J. Michael Bailey's published exercise in transphobia, but until now, we haven't gotten close to the source of his misjudgements. Now we talk with one of the transwomen who worked closely with him as he undertook his "research". Anjelica Kieltyka, artist, activist and self-proclaimed whistle blower, talks about the betrayal of trust that came about with his publication.

Anjelica consulted with Bailey, author of "The Man who Would be Queen: the Psychology of Genderbending and Transsexualism" for over a decade. She has spoken out against his book and his unethical behavior, and she inspired the Southern Poverty Law Center's research that found links between Bailey and dangerous Right Wing groups.

Andrea James, author and activist who runs tsroadmap.com, details her analysis of, and objections to, the philosophy of transgender behavior and motivation promoted by Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence and called "autogynephilia".

Andrea James is an author and activist who runs tsroadmap.com. Last year, she spoke on GenderTalk about the controversy surrounding the book "The Man Who Would Be Queen" by Northwestern University psychologist J. Michael Bailey. Bailey's book caused an unprecedented mobilization within academic and activist circles. Even people who had not gotten involved before helped with an investigation started by Lynn Conway. One of the most disturbing findings to emerge from that investigation was the eugenic ideology that informs Bailey's book. Bailey restates claims previously made by Ray Blanchard and Anne Lawrence that gender variance is a type of sex-fueled disease. The Bailey-Blanchard-Lawrence disease model of gender identity will be part of the upcoming fight on the place of gender identity in the revised Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

Andrea has just written an essay that attempts to synthesize and contextualize the Bailey-Blanchard-Lawrence model and its place in the history of systems of thought. The essay is called "A defining moment in our history: examining disease models of gender identity," and it's available online here.


The more I read these ignorant posts on these blog sites, the less respect I have for the investigative quality of the postings. I know that time pressure limits the depth of the investigation, but really, Bailey is a fraud and no one should be seriously discussing anything he publishes as if it were science.

Cheryl

Oh yes, let's not forget the cherry on top:

The Bailey Affair: Psychology Perverted

By Joan Roughgarden
Department of Biological Sciences
Stanford University
February 11, 2004

"I wonder if many psychologists fully grasp the image some of their colleagues are projecting---

psychology as a discipline without standards, nourishing a clique of dumbly insensitive bigots.

These psychologists don’t seek to help people, but to dominate them by controlling the definition of normalcy.

Their bogus categories and made-up diseases are intended to subordinate, not to describe."

- Joan Roughgarden


A long-simmering dispute pitting psychologists against others in academe has now boiled into public attention, receiving coverage in the Chronicle of Higher Education, ScienceNOW, the Associated Press and the Chicago Tribune, among others. On National Academies’ letterhead, a book’s advertisement reads: ``Gay, Straight, or Lying? Science Has the Answer", and conclusions promised that ``may not always be politically correct, but… are scientifically accurate, thoroughly researched and occasionally startling." Published by the National Academies, and written by Michael Bailey, professor and chair of the psychology department at Northwestern University, the title alone is considered inflammatory, The Man Who Would be Queen: The Science of Gender-Bending and Transsexualism. Transgendered people, outraged by the book, by the National Academies’ leadership, and by academic psychologists’ uncritical stance, have launched an unprecedented counterattack. The National Academies’ leadership as well as the author profess to be “surprised” by the continuing dispute.


This dispute won’t go away. The book isn’t an isolated instance of poor and prejudicial scholarship. The outrage of transgendered people against Bailey coincides with that of other scholars against psychologists who write about gender while pretending to be scientific.

Cheryl

While we're at it, let's hear Roughgarden's views in her own words:

Joan Roughgarden, world renowned expert on biology and ecology, on her challenge to Darwin's theories and promotion of diversity-affirming models of biology and evolution

" Females are not selecting males for their genes, they're selecting to orchestrate the power dynamic so that their offspring will have a good chance of surviving. "
- Joan Roughgarden

Was Darwin wrong about sex roles and mating choices? Yes, according to the director of Stanford University's Earth Systems Program, Joan Roughgarden, who also happens to be male-to-female transsexual. Joan is an expert on biological and ecological diversity, and she is mounting a serious - and credible - challenge to some long-standing beliefs about evolution. Her ideas may profoundly influence the way that we regard ourselves and our behaviors. She also shares her response to a recent book that many believe poses a serious threat to transgender persons.


It is my firm belief that only those whose real-life experience lies in the center of a continuum can objectively view issues of diversity. I hope that anyone who is tempted to 'analyze' Bailey's work gives up before wasting too much serious effort on a farce. -Cheryl

Cheryl

Just in case any of you decided not to follow the link to Joan's critique of Bailey, try this morsel on for size:

Bailey also attacks gays and women. About gays, Bailey writes, ``the brains of homosexual people may be mosaics of male and female parts... this mixture explains much of what is unique in gay men's culture and lives." (p. 60) Bailey goes on to claim that ``gay men have tended to have more of certain psychological problems than straight men" (p. 81.) The disease of being gay is the disease of being a woman. ``Gay men's pattern of susceptibility to… mental problems reflects their femininity. The problems that gay men are most susceptible to---eating disorders, depression, and anxiety disorders---are the same problems that women also suffer from disproportionately" (p. 82) He continues, ``Learning why gay men are more easily depressed than straight men might tell us why women are also." (p. 83)

Hear that, ladies? You are ill by virtue of your gender! And this man presumes to call himself a scientist???

Then he piously states, ``nothing I have written means that we should… again consider it a mental illness... the problems are being... depressed... [whereas] homosexuality, per se, is not a problem." (p. 83)

But- but- but-

didn't he just say the exact opposite?

I have nothing against niggers. Some of my best friends are niggers.

Furthermore, ``Gay men will always have more sex partners than straight people do. Those who are attached will be less sexually monogamous." (p. 100)

OK, we all know gay men fuck like rabbits, or at least sme of them do. Does Bailey mention the fact that social sanctions against gay relationships tends to put inordinate stress on them? Does he mention that heterosexual relationships have strong social reinforcements, such as in things like, say, employment benefits, inheritance rights and joint child rearing, not to mention the high cost and public embarrassment of divorce proceedings, that keep women locked into abusive relationships for decades, whereas queers are free to roam because there is not much payoff in staying in a relationship for people who are legally prevented from getting married? No, of course not.

I left the juicy quotes about AIDS for you to go find on your own... but you know, I once heard of this group of Nazis who crafted a 'hepatitis vaccine study' that invited well-placed, upper-class gay white American men to participate... provided they self-described as highly promiscuous. Supposedly the 'vaccine' was actually HIV... and then we suddenly had an AIDS epidemic in the gay male American population.

Then he follows with another pious disclaimer, ``Social conservatives will view this prediction as tantamount to an admission of the inferiority of the gay male lifestyle, but it is not." (p. 101). And he winds up raising the specter of eugenics, ``I certainly have no motive to change gay people or prevent them from being born." (p 113)

What's that, gay men sometimes have sex with straight women? I guess we were wrong about bisexuality being a myth after all. Fire up the ovens, Dr. Mengele. Time to extinguish that forest fire we accidentally set.

These disclaimers are disingenuous. Bailey is setting the stage for others to advocate the persecution of gays from a scientific perspective. This tack was used when setting up a biological argument for racially cleansing the Aryan race of Jews in Nazi Germany...

Bailey has no data, none at all. He offers no surveys, no data tables, no statistics, nothing. He doesn’t give the sample size for the “study" he refers to occasionally. No references are offered to primary literature either.

Why am I not surprised?

Six transgendered people are mentioned by name (pseudonym). Bailey did not take detailed and rigorous notes when interviewing these subjects, and relies on his recollection of their meetings.

So his entire book was based on hearsay??? And he did not even bother to write any of it down in real time???

This sample is highly non-representative because the women he interviewed he met while ``cruising" (p. 141) in ``the Baton, Chicago's premier female impersonator club,'' (p. 186)...

Uh-oh, is this leading where I think it is?

And amazingly, four of his six subjects filed formal complaints with the administration at Northwestern University charging that Bailey did not notify them that their narratives were to be used as “research material” in his book (Jennifer Leopoldt, Transsexuals file 2 more claims against Bailey, The Daily Northwestern, August 2, 2003.) After reading accounts supposedly about them, the women reported being inaccurately transcribed.

So was it his trick memory, or his propensity to lie, or both that led to his complete perversion of the facts?

Furthermore, Bailey did not disclose that he was writing letters for these women to authorize sex-reassignment surgeries in return for their interviews, placing the women and Bailey in conflict of interest.

Huh? This man was providing treatment and surgery referrals to transsexuals, while simultaneously using them as research subjects for his book, without their knowledge???

As of December 2003, all six of the subjects have filed formal complaints that their consent was not obtained.

Huh? Bailey published a 'research' book on a total of 6 subjects without their consent? Perhaps without their knowledge? Is this science, or a queer hit piece?

And even more astonishingly, the Chronicle of Higher Education reports that one of the women has formally charged Bailey with having sex with her at her apartment. Bailey has declined to comment, and the Northwestern University has declined to pursue this charge, although they are pursuing the charges about failure to obtain consent (Robin Wilson, Dec. 12, 2003, Northwestern U. psychologist is accused of having sex with research subject).

I guess this was in fact headed where I thought it was going. Now I know I should be knocked flat by this allegation, but after all the other irregularities it stands to reason that he would have been fucking them in every way possible. Apparently his tome about the internalized homophobia, philandering and dishonesty he accuses gays of exhibiting is actually his own autobiography.

At this time, all of Bailey’s narrative information is irretrievably compromised, and the circumstance in which the information was obtained is allegedly scandalous. Finally, the narrative that frames the section on transgendered women (the Danny narrative) is reportedly acknowledged to be completely fabricated.

Did I read that right? Bailey admitted that he fabricated a narrative in a book that presumes to be research?

I apologize for not having attributed quotes clearly in the previous posts. I was so outraged I just kept pasting and posting.

If any of you have any sense of scientific integrity you will immediately stop calling Bailey a researcher and start calling him a Nazi, because that is what he is. A Nazi. A queer one at that.

Hail Bailey!
Zeit Heil!

djGreen

Another victory for Bush: the Dowing Street Minutes are now safely buried and forgotten by all, forever.

Anjelica Kieltyka

Dear Cheryl,

My name is Anjelica Kieltyka, I am the very one you speak of in your RIGHT ON exposure of Bailey as a neo-Nazi. It was totally RIGHT ON : hereswhatsleft.typepad.com/home/2005/07/liberals_and_sc.html :


" ... We've talked all about J. Michael Bailey's published exercise in transphobia, but until now, we haven't gotten close to the source of his misjudgements. Now we talk with one of the transwomen who worked closely with him as he undertook his "research". Anjelica Kieltyka, artist, activist and self-proclaimed whistle blower, talks about the betrayal of trust that came about with his publication.

Anjelica consulted with Bailey, author of "The Man who Would be Queen: the Psychology of Genderbending and Transsexualism" for over a decade. She has spoken out against his book and his unethical behavior, and she inspired the Southern Poverty Law Center's research that found links between Bailey and dangerous Right Wing groups..."


I very much need to talk to you about all of this WMD - Weapons of Mass Deception - All this high-jacked, manipulated, and "fixed" research.

It truly is "Queered" Science.

All manufactured and concocted to fit the Gays, Guns and God agenda of the RIGHT and their Culture War.

It is a strategic social darwinist scheme to eliminate gays and certain transexuals with the same bogus WMD tactics of misinformation and manipulated and cherry-picked "data" that suckered the country into the War in Iraq. The NeoCONs and Noble Liars (including Fukuyama and Charles Krauthammer) are running both wars : their War in Iraq and their Culture War against the GLBT and others considered DEVIANT.

It is a retro fitted ARCHITECTURE OF DOOM - Bailey's "Queen" Book is the Neo-Nazi and NeoCON version of "The Eternal Jew" ..... retitled "The Eternal Queer".

Call or write me as soon as you can ..... There is so much more to this then a stupid book.

Anjelica Kieltyka 708.788.3364

P.S. Your writing is accurate and to the point .... Best I've seen to cover so much important information in so short of space.

SPLC only scratched the surface - but they were the first to CONFIRM my suspicions of a conspiracy behind the Bailey Controversy.

FYI - For another two totally RIGHT ON articles
google : [Anjelica Kieltyka, Medill, Bailey] and [Anjelica Kieltyka, SPLC, Queer Science]



"... Anjelica Kieltyka said she doesn’t get mad. She gets even..." - Medill News Service, Nov. 23, 2003

Insight and Responsibility ..... Blowing the Whistle - That's what it takes ....

Cheryl ..... thank you for helping me "even the score" against all this pseudo-science and fraudulent "researchers". They are nothing but a bunch of "Carpet-baggers" and "Charlatans" pretending to be scientists in search of the truth. They are all Noble Liars and their iniquitous affront to science, truth and our humanity must be exposed and dealt with.

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