Are they forged?

I don't know. CBS is sticking by its story, but the WaPo (and here's a shout out to all of you that are so fond of crying "liberal media" everytime they publish anything) has a piece questioning their authenticity:

Documents unearthed by CBS News that raise doubts about whether President Bush fulfilled his obligations to the Texas Air National Guard include several features suggesting that they were generated by a computer or word processor rather than a Vietnam War-era typewriter, experts said yesterday.

Experts consulted by a range of news organizations pointed out typographical and formatting questions about four documents as they considered the possibility that they were forged. The widow of the National Guard officer whose signature is on the bottom of the documents also disputed their authenticity.

but the article goes on:

CBS News released a statement yesterday standing by its reporting, saying that each of the documents "was thoroughly vetted by independent experts and we are convinced of their authenticity." The statement added that CBS reporters had verified the documents by talking to unidentified people who saw them "at the time they were written." [...]

A senior CBS official, who asked not to be named because CBS managers did not want to go beyond their official statement, named one of the network's sources as retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, the immediate superior of the documents' alleged author, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian. He said a CBS reporter read the documents to Hodges over the phone and Hodges replied that "these are the things that Killian had expressed to me at the time."

"These documents represent what Killian not only was putting in memoranda, but was telling other people," the CBS News official said. "Journalistically, we've gone several extra miles."

So, the jury's out, and I'm sure the truth will be known soon.

A few notes, though:

1) If the documents are forged, and were in fact done a modern computer, I find that the height of stupidity. If someone was out there to forge a document and make it pass for authentic, you'd think at least they would have done their homework. Which leads me to my next point:

2) If they are forged, the people that forged them are either total amateurs who are hoping to damage Bush and have bungled it, or are people that knew that the forgery would be easily found out and had a different goal in mind. I don't consider either outside the realm of possibility.

3) If they are forgeries, CBS should be ashamed.

4) If they are not forged, I think this chapter represents a successful chapter in the Republican response machine. The idea of them being a forgery has dampened the story for a few days.

5) It's funny to me that the White House did not immediately dispute the findings in the documents, if they are forgeries. Why would they not say, "President Bush has no recollection of this conversation with Lt. Col. Killian"? Why would the White House communications director essentially concede that the contents of the memos are correct if the White House knew they weren't? Is that suggestive of something?

Answers to all of these questions I'm sure will be forthcoming soon. Either that or the story will limp along for weeks, and do no one any good at all.

-- Michael

Comments

[d meyers]

LOL....

Excuse me, the White house is GIVEN the document by CBS and the White House distributed them. HOW THE HELL WOULD BUSH KNOW WHAT HIS COMMANDER SUPPOSEDLY PUT IN HIS PERSONAL FILE ESPECIALLY SINCE THE COMMANDER GAVE HIM GLOWING REVIEWS

News I am hearing
1. Documents given to CBS by THE DNC (no red flags raised at CBS?)
2. CBS had documents for 6 FREAKIN weeks. They sat on the story and timed its release to the DAY AFTER LABOR DAY, right after GW's convention, right on the OFFICIAL start of the campaign
3. CBS claims they had experts review the documents. CBS has the documents for 6 weeks, having experts review it and it took the blogosphere LESS THAN 2 DAYS TO POINT OUT THE FRAUD.

So where does this leave us if these documents are fraud (since you speculate what if it isn't)
1. CBS and DNC took part in a Third Rate forgery and attempted to commit fraud on the American Electorate.
2. CBS, the supposed Gold (I mean Tiffany) Standard of News IS SUNK. Rather needs to resign and the everyone who took part in this story should be fired
3. Can anyone say WATERGATE. Watergate was a third rate burglary by the re-election campaign of Nixon. Document-Gate is a third rate forgery (is forgery and fraud a felony?) by the re-election campaign of Kerry.
4. Kerry is Sunk, the DNC is toast and worst of all, this puts all Democrat Congressional candidates in the hot-seat if they do not come out and thoroughly denounce this attempted fraud.
5. What did Kerry know and when did he know it??
6. Once again Tom Harkin shows himself to be a total a-hole. Don't expect any apology anytime soon.
7. This will be a tidal wave across the United States. The DNC, and the entire Dem party, will be painted as frauds and I predict, as is typical for Dems, they will go on the attack and nobody of significance will step down...

A NATIONAL PARTY NO MORE (gee, who said that?)
2.

[d meyers]

Oh, back to the "so called" liberal media

First, I was mistaken in my last post, it took the blogosphere less than one day, not two, to point out the problems.

CBS is the poster child of the liberal media. Lets look at what they did

1. They receive documents from the DNC and the natural inclination is to believe it. How the hell would the DNC get a hold of the personal files of a dead guy? That doesn't raise any questions?
2. They hold onto the documents for 6 weeks? WHY? Well they hold onto the story and release it at the most opportune time.
3. Did they have experts examine the documents?? Well they claim they did but it takes the blogosphere less than 2 days to point out the many, many, many, many suspicious items
4. Was the family of this Lt. Col contacted by CBS?? OF COURSE NOT, it might ruin their hit piece
5. We know have the Tiffany Network, the most fabled news network, actively taking part in a fraud because of their institutionalized BIAS and dislike of OUR President.
6. Do you see how journalistic standards just go out the window when BIAS takes over?
7. Does CBS produce their so-called experts when called on it??? Of course not. Did they even consult experts??? From the Wash Post “CBS spokeswoman Kelli Edwards declined to respond to questions raised by experts who examined copies of the papers at the request of The Washington Post, or to provide the names of the experts CBS consulted.” How is it it takes the blogosphere less than 1 DAY to find many, many experts to raise questions about the docs but in 6 weeks CBS can't quite get it done?

FALLOUT
1. The OLD MEDIA, CBS, ABC, NBC, LA TIMES, NY TIMES are DONE. They are so clueless to the new media of the internet that only a 100% shakeup could revive them.
2. The Old media MONOPOLY is OVER.
3. This shows that the American people ARE NOT STUPID and cannot be SNOWED.
4. This could sink the DEM party to levels of the Repub party after Watergate.
5. As is typical, the Dem party will go on the attack and refuse to take responsibility for the actions of the DNC
6. There is now a good chance for major, major gains in Congress by the Republicans... can anyone say Fillabuster Proof majority???

[here's what's left]

d, you've really lost it today. i'll hold you to those predictions.

i get kind of tired of saying this, but you still don't have any evidence for your liberal media claims. you still don't. you list 20 or so points up there. none of them really have to do with the subject of my post, and none of them contain any evidence of anything. which is another way of saying this: none of them contain any evidence of anything.

here's another way: none of them contain any evidence of anything.

some of your and some of your are flat out wrong: "4. Was the family of this Lt. Col contacted by CBS?? OF COURSE NOT, it might ruin their hit piece." actually, they did.

and as for your assertions about kerry and the DNC, you should shut up until you have some evidence.

no evidence. no evidence. no evidence.

that's why our side gets so frustrated. you guys are willing to make these claims with no evidence.

with no evidence.

[d meyers]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, there is no media bias.

INCREDIBLY the Boston Globe, TODAY after very, very, very serious questions have been raised about the authenticity of the "documents", contines to go against the First Rule of Holes, when in a hole, stop digging.

Today's story continues the fraud, http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/09/10/kerry_team_dnc_hit_bush_on_guard_issue/

How about these gems from the Kerry Dem Party:

"The Democratic National Committee and military veterans will take the lead in questioning the president's Guard service in the late 1960s and early '70s, Kerry's aides added."

"For the second day in a row, the Democratic National Committee held a conference call with reporters on newly disclosed documents about Bush's service, with Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa and Richard Klass, a retired US Air Force colonel, repeatedly questioning the incumbent's ''character" and ''honesty."

"''If the president will lie about this, will he lie about how we got into Iraq, for example?" Harkin said. ''This goes right to the heart of the character and the truthfulness of the current occupant of the White House."

Well Harkin, if you will LIE ABOUT DOCUMENTS what does that tell about your F'IN Character.

And this gem

"A group of veterans in West Virginia, organized by the Democratic National Committee, also held a news conference yesterday to challenge Bush's Guard record, and veterans in Pennsylvania and Ohio plan to do the same today. More are planned in other battleground states, Howard Wolfson, Democratic National Committee adviser, said yesterday. He said criticism will continue almost daily, ''at least until Bush himself answers these questions about his service directly." Last spring, Kerry said that he would not question Bush's decision to serve in the Guard instead of going to Vietnam but that he would challenge the president on whether he had fulfilled his Guard obligations."

Funny, WHEN IS IT KERRY WILL MEET WITH THE PRESS AND TAKE QUESTIONS? 41 days and counting.

Funny, WHEN IS IT THAT KERRY WILL RELEASE HIS RECORDS?? Months and Months and still counting

Can someone tell Tom "Dick Chaney is a Coward" Harkin, Tom "I lied about my own vietnam exploits" Harkin that HE IS A TOTAL DISGRACE.

[here's what's left]

no evidence, no evidence, no evidence.

did you actually read my original post? i don't think you did.

[d meyers]

TICK TOCK, TICK TOCK... The ticking of the 60 Minutes signature lead in??? The ticking of the bomb that will implode CBS and the Kerry campaign??? YOU DECIDE

From Powerlineblog.com, the blog that lead the way in doing the job that CBS could not.. This is just too good..

"More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for the Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly written by President George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian.
The oppo researcher claimed the source was "a retired military officer." According to a DNC staffer, the documents were seen by both senior staff members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign.

"More than a couple people heard about the papers," says the DNC staffer. "I've heard that they ended up with the Kerry campaign, for them to decide to how to proceed, and presumably they were handed over to 60 Minutes, which used them the other night. But I know this much. When there was discussion here, there were doubts raised about their authenticity."

The concerns arose from the sourcing. "It wasn't clear that our source for the documents would have had access to them. Our person couldn't confirm from what file, from what original source they came from."

A CBS producer, who initially tipped off The Prowler about the 60 Minutes story, says that despite seeking professional assurances that the documents were legitimate, there was uncertainty even among the group of producers and researchers working on the story.

"The problem was we had one set of documents from Bush's file that had Killian calling Bush 'an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot.' And someone who Killian said 'performed in an outstanding manner.' Then you have these new documents and the tone and content are so different."

The CBS producer said that some alarms bells went off last week when the signatures and initials of Killian on the documents in hand did not match up with other documents available on the public record, but producers chose to move ahead with the story. "This was too hot not to push. If there were doubts, those people didn't show it," says the producer, who works on a rival CBS News program.

Now, the producer says, there is growing concern inside the building on 57th Street that they may have been suckered by the Kerry campaign"

How good is this

"The CBS producer said that some alarms bells went off last week when the signatures and initials of Killian on the documents in hand did not match up with other documents available on the public record, but producers chose to move ahead with the story. "This was too hot not to push." YA THINK??? hmm, signatures don't match but what the hell, we have to sink GW and kerry's camp gave these to us so they must be legit... I FEEL LIKE I AM IN THE LAND OF MAKE BELIEVE

"the documents were seen by both senior staff members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign." ... CAN ANYONE SAY WATERGATE!!!

[d meyers]

"and as for your assertions about kerry and the DNC, you should shut up until you have some evidence.

no evidence. no evidence. no evidence.

that's why our side gets so frustrated. you guys are willing to make these claims with no evidence.

with no evidence. "

see my last post. I guess quotes from DNC staffers is not evidence

[here's what's left]

you'll believe whatever you read, won't you? that is a notoriously right-wing blog quoting from another notoriously right-wing blog quoting from the American Spectator, a notoriously dishonest and right-wing publication.

let me say it again, in a different way. show me some real evidence. you won't. that's fine, because there is none. but at least be honest in your paranoia. such frothing at the mouth doesn't become you.

[d meyers]

you are falling into the same trap as the Old Media, disregard the bloggers. Powerline blog was first on the possible forgery and did great work lining up experts in less than a day. Somehow the Tiffany Network, with all their resources, could not do in 6 weeks what Powerline did is less than 1 day... and yet you dismiss them as a notoriously right wing blog.

You also claimed my claim that the family did not release the documents was a lie. Well I heard his son interviewed and he said the family were not the source, his wife said nothing about releasing the documents from her deceased husband's files, in fact on Nightline she claimed that she believed they were not authentic.

Also from Powerline (reporting on Rather's appearance on CNN.. but of course since powerline reported on an actual appearance it can't be believed)

"half hour ago, Dan Rather went on CNN and said that he knows the Jerry Killian documents to be authentic, and knows that they are not forgeries. Therefore, he said, there will be no retraction, no correction, and -- apparently -- no investigation. The text of the interview is not yet available on CNN's site, but we'll link to it when it becomes available."

WOW, this is NEW. CBS is claiming there will be a full investigation but Dan is saying no investigation...

CBS MUST reveal who they received the documents from.

The DNC and the Kerry campaign MUST address this issue RIGHT AWAY. Were either the conduit of passing the documents from source to CBS?

Until CBS/DNC and kerry campaign address this there is only one thing to conclude

[d meyers]

An interesting view from long time Dem operator:

Longtime Democratic strategist Pat Caddell said Friday that if documents aired by CBS newsman Dan Rather Wednesday night turn out to be forged as alleged by experts, the presidential race "is over."

"It would be the end of the race," Caddell told Fox News Live. "It would be the end of the race," he repeated.

"[Democratic officials are] so involved in this," the former Carter pollster worried. "They have gotten themselves so involved in this issue, [in] the last 24 hours, that somebody's going to, if they're not authentic, they're going to be blamed for it. It's incredible to me that they've gotten in this."
Caddell said he wasn't trying be sensationalize the issue, explaining that instead, "I'm trying to save my party, you know, by telling the truth."

He said that forfeiting the presidential race would be the least of his party's problems if Democrats are tied to any forgery scandal.

"The race is over - and we've got bigger problems than that," he warned.

[d meyers]

CBS and the Boston Globe have driven off the cliff into the abyss of no return, will NBC follow them over the edge?? YOU DECIDE

"NBC News was also mired in a credibility crisis, as a spokeswoman for the network's "Today Show" insisted it was going forward with its planned rollout of Kitty Kelley's Bush bashing book, "The Family: The Real Story of the Bush Dynasty" - even though Kelley's key witness against Bush has recanted her account that Bush used cocaine and has accused Kelley of fabricating her interview.

"I categorically deny that I ever told Kitty Kelley that George W. Bush used cocaine at Camp David or that I ever saw him use cocaine at Camp David," ex-Bush sister-in-law Sharon Bush said in a statement issued Thursday.

Instead, the one-time Bush family insider insisted, "When Kitty Kelley raised drug use at Camp David, I responded by saying something along the lines of, 'Who would say such a thing?'"

Still, "Today Show" spokeswoman Lauren Kapps insisted that NBC producers had no plan to cancel or even scale back Kelley's three day mega promotion on the program, touted by the network as the crown jewel of morning TV."

[here's what's left]

d, i'm amazed at how quick you are to become so shrill. if you did some real research you would see that there are point by point reponses to the forgery charges.

i think you have a problem with paranoia. you should get that looked at.

this website is for reasoned debate and analysis. if the docs are forged, they're forged. if they're not, they're not.

you need to calm down, stop accusing the DNC and CBS of engaging in a massive conspiracy, and we'll see what the real facts are. when you say stuff like this: "Until CBS/DNC and kerry campaign address this there is only one thing to conclude" one has a hard time taking you seriously.

i assume you'll keep freaking out, but just for propriety's sake, i'm asking you not to.

[d meyers]

Serious, Serious, legitimate questions have been raised about the documents. Document experts across this nation have raised legitimate questions.

so where we are right now are that there are legitimate questions about the documents. So what is to be done by CBS and the DNC/Kerry campaign? NOTHING?

No. This is a serious situation, just as a third rate robbery was 30 years ago. So, wouldn't any serious journalist ask the following questions:

1. To CBS - who are the experts you used to authenticate the documents?
2. To CBS - who gave you these documents? This is relevant because if it is the DNC and/or Kerry campaign then that moves the story forward.
3. to DNC/Kerry Campaign - did either group give these documents to CBS or did either group see these documents prior to CBS airing the story?

No, if these three reasonable questions are "freaking out" then you need to come back to earth.

Look, this is a potentially explosive story so why are the above questions so over the top?

Neither you or I don't know the truth so what questions regarding this story would you like to be asked?

[d meyers]

Oh, one other item any good investigative journalist should do. Get a hold of as many documents as possible from Mr. Killian and/or other documents produced during the same time frame from others where Mr. Killian was stationed. I would assume the offices where Mr. Killian was stationed used the same typewriters so you would be able to compare other documents produced at the same time and these "mysterious 4 documents"

[bob sleidel]

These hypothetical cries of hysteria are troubling and emblematic:

"CBS and DNC took part in a Third Rate forgery and attempted to commit fraud on the American Electorate."

"Can anyone say WATERGATE."

"This will be a tidal wave across the United States."

This rampant hyperbole and doomsday prognostication could have been spun no better by the White House. Item 1 is funny, considering that committing fraud on the American electorate has been the national pastime of Republicans for years, whether one looks to the '00 election, frustrating attempts to have the Florida voter roll list made public this year, their insistence on electronic voting with no paper trails, their underhanded and dishonest redistricting efforts in Texas, intimidation tactics by local police against elderly people of color that have histories of motivating people to vote. No one could possibly deny that it's in the interest of Republicans everywhere to prevent certain non-whites from voting, since G.W. only got 8 or 9% of the african american vote in 2000. So these huge injustices against the american electorate are really really bad, only if they will sway some white people from voting for GW. The others, well, fuck off.

Item 2 is also humorous in many ways. The Bush administration has been dishonest about so many issues of Importance, things affecting People's Lives, like WMDs, Iraq, Abu Ghirab, Afghanistan etc., yet Democrats have been pathetically unable to take down the GOP with any of the Bush administration deceptions and obfuscations or raise public interest to real scandal level. The Bush administration has had a hundred Watergates but nobody seems to mind. The scary thing is that the GOP hysteria machine can get a president impeached over a blowjob, but Bush and Co. can deceive with impunity.

Democrats can't get away with campaigning on a health care bill that prevents the federal govt. from bargaining for prices with drug companies, a social security system that magically transitions from the current system to "saving accounts" yet leaves out the important little fact that there is no $500+ billion dollars to pay for those currently receiving SS benefits when we suddenly stop diverting current payroll payments, or even to allege that we are "fighting the terrorists over here so that they can't get us over there," or that these ridiculous tax cuts have created this imaginary economic recovery...but that shit is everyday stuff for Republicans.

A good example of the sheer audacity of their bullshit is that they're alleging that they will nearly halve the deficit in 4 or 5 years, but this is based on calculations assuming that many of the tax cuts expire. Which would be fine except they're trying to make the tax cuts permanent. Definitely looking out for MY best interests.

Item 3, "this will be a tidal wave across the US" is also funny. It almost sounds like this "forgery" if it turns out to be one could fall under the ever-widening definition of "terror," by the amount of sensationalism and hysteria that would result if we were to believe such hype. Because if you keep saying it long enough, we'll believe it. But that's the GOP way, power through fear. There are 2 vastly different kinds of terror right now. The real "War ON Terror," which involves sometimes attempting to find people affiliated with groups that have attacked the US or pose active threats, and then there's the "War OF Terror," or the "Election of Terror," whereby we need to vote Republican because they seem to be the only ones who even know what Terror is these days, let alone can defend us from it.

[bog]

Thanks, bob sleidel, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Unfortunately, I think this type of response is exactly what "they" want. We break everything they say down and explain why it's wrong. They then call us "loons" without providing any evidence. So, we look crazy because we respond and think. They look strong because they can call us names.

So, d_meyers, I call you a loon.

[here's what's left]

thanks for for the help, guys.

look, if the docs are forged, they're forged. and sooner or later, the truth will come out. if they are forged, the person that forged them will go to jail, life will go on.

if they're not forged, bush is fucked.

d, you're just out of control today, dude. your rants have been bordering on the hysterical, as bob pointed out up there.

really, would it make any sense at all for someone in the kerry campaign or the DNC to forge these documents (and forget them in a way that can be found out)? i mean, they have so much good stuff already: ben barnes, the hodges guy now, texans for truth, the last 4 years of the bush presidency...

you don't have any evidence of anything at all, yet you're still suggesting that the kerry campaign was involved, somehow with the implication that liberal media is trying to not ask the tough questions. i don't know what to say to that.

when i sense a conspiracy about something, as i did a few days ago, at least i have the grace to admit that i don't have any evidence. but d, you go full force, comparing it to watergate, saying that CBS and the DNC conspired to deceive the american public. no wonder you're in favor of the iraq war. i don't think there's any sort of conspiracy that your paranoid psychology won't accept if it's structured right.

what really bothers me, though, is the same kind of straw man phenomenon that i was talking about a few days ago. if the docs are forged, lefties are going to admit that (look at John Marshall and Kevin Drum), and the kerry campaign will certainly admit that, but i don't think you want to believe that we're going to be reasonable. it doesn't fit into your need to demonize those who don't agree with you.

[d meyers]

You can rant all you want about Bush this, Bush that, I just want some simple questions answered that any reasonable investigative journalist would ask:

1. To CBS - who are the experts you used to authenticate the documents?
2. To CBS - who gave you these documents? This is relevant because if it is the DNC and/or Kerry campaign then that moves the story forward.
3. to DNC/Kerry Campaign - did either group give these documents to CBS or did either group see these documents prior to CBS airing the story?

Of course I do not know these answers yet and neither do you but is it too much to ask that they be asked? These are simple questions that should be asked, why are you all afraid of them being asked?

My guess Dan Rather this evening will not say who they got the documents from. I understand he will say they found that there existed a typewriter that could produce the superscript th. Of course the response is so what? Was this typewriter used in the military??

lets see what Rather has to say, if all I hear is "Trust me, these are not fakes" then that doesn't cut it and anyone with an ounce of intelligence would demand at least the above 3 questions be asked.

[d meyers]

"look, if the docs are forged, they're forged. and sooner or later, the truth will come out. if they are forged, the person that forged them will go to jail, life will go on."

I love this one. Apply that quote to Watergate

Look, if there was a break in, there was a break in. Sooner or later the truth with come out. if there was a break in the person that did the break in will go to jail, life will go on.... I LOVE IT.

I admit I did some projection and predictions but my basic point is that there is some serious questions raised about these documents and to me it could have some serious consequences if they are forged, both to CBS and those involved (whoever that may be). it is not too much to ask the above basic questions.. But of course, all of you don't want those questions asked, which is fine